'Labour’s plan to cut tuition fees to Ј6,000 is...' blog discussion

A question about : 'Labour’s plan to cut tuition fees to Ј6,000 is...' blog discussion

This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's blog. Please read the blog first, as this discussion follows it.

Read Martin's Labour’s plan to cut tuition fees to Ј6,000 is a financially illiterate policy Blog.

Please click 'post reply' to discuss below.

Best answers:

• @jaccantt on Twitter
  This misses one group of students and subsequent workers. The following is rushed, so forgive me
  My parent's had no money and I funded uni myself. I took out a Student loan and hardship loan for each year I was in Uni for 4 years, back in 1999. I didn't spend much tbh, but rent, travel and bills saw me needing to borrow more. I did one year in London and *much* more went out than came in with Loan and Salary so debt was building up. Credit was only available in other loans and credit cards.
  After Uni I didn't get a job immediately. But debtors wanted money. I had to juggle debt, credit card after credit card to make ends meet. Young, unable to get any other financial help, you go with what you can. Living in Wales there were few jobs, even for a 1st Class BSC. I eventually got a job, but the salary was fairly low.
  Year after year, juggling the debt, accruing more and more interest.
  I found my salary rise rapidly and quickly started having to pay student loan back. With the other debt needing to be paid off too, it was too much going out.
  Years on, I still have couple of years left to pay Student loan and can't afford to save for a mortgage. The Student Loans Company have no way to ask them to payments for a bit, they say it sits at the top of the pile and to talk to other debtors... long story short as I plough through that is that Student Loans being paying off only when you're rich with a good job is absolutely missing the point with regards to lots of people who have to spend a lot to get going in life, then it comes to hit you when you desperately need to get on.
  It needs to look at people's circumstances because it's not that simple. The money is taken before looking at everything that goes out!
  *If* it was Ј9000 a year, I would have been declared bankrupt by now!
  We really should help people who want to be educated more in this country!
  So Labour lowering the cost, it's still not great, but it's going in the right direction.
  Jonathan
• The amount of years paying that loan off and not the wider debt I refer to that is increasing with interest. The amount of years paying rent because I can't save for a deposit to get a house.
  Make sense?
• For issues like this I tend not to care about affluent graduates but non-affluent children about to consider going to university. So I prefer grants based on parental income per child or more generous income tests than any post-graduation issues.
  I also care more about north-south discrimination at repayment time, so that those in the south of the country don't end up repaying more than those in the north just because they are in areas with higher costs and hence higher pay to deal with those costs. So I prefer a minimum repayment threshold and repayment percentage based on local cost of living.
  I care about repayment systems that take more money from those in prime child rearing ages and stop taking payments after that. If you successfully end up being socially mobile, I don't want your children disadvantaged as a result, I want the second generation at least not penalised. So I favour a longer number of repaying years, up to 50 from 30, but lower percentage taken from income during that time.
  There is choice in the system, including the choice not to work. So I favour a household income test, not solely personal income, so that if you make choices that lead to not repaying, your household doesn't get to completely dodge repaying because of your collective choice.
  There's the choice to take low paying jobs. That choice is good but I also like at least some obligation to pay so I'd prefer a sliding scale of at least some repayment at any income level, even on means tested benefits.
• I have a real problem with charging Ј9k a year, because it is a rip off by most Universities. Why is that? well for a start most courses are around 10 hours a week for 3 semesters (of around 10-12 weeks) though the spring semester is often shorter. So 3 * 12 * 10 = 360 hours of tution 9000/360 = Ј25 an hour per student in tuition fees (ok there are use of equipment and rooms. But paper, books, computers and other personal equipment are also an expense of the student). I believe that given the number of students that are on a particular course that is way too much to be paying! That sort of money would require one to one or very small group tuition. Three of my children have been through this system (fortunately when it was 3k a year) and they all said that sometimes the lecturers sometimes didn't turn up or they were pointed to a webpage to find and learn stuff (instead of a lecture), or the lecturers were `'too busy`' to see them one to one or my children felt that they were being fobbed off! This was 3 children at 3 different universities. Not all tutors were like that but quite a few were. Unfortunately, unlike me they wouldn't want to complain as they didn't want to rock the boat and scared because maybe those lecturers might 'down mark' their assignments in the future. I think the first year, because they were straight from school, they thought this was a bit of a "jolly jape". However, in the second and third year (and fourth in one case) as they matured and realised that this was their future, that these "tutors" were messing with, they became more and more frustrated. So I feel sorry for those who are paying Ј9k plus their living accommodation and food. Therefore, having to borrow even more just to attend Uni and not getting good value.
• Will Martin also be producing at article about the Conservatives' proposals to reduce spending on schools, in real terms?
  The promises are for flat spending, i.e. not increasing with inflation. Somewhat patronisingly, they seem to want people to believe this is a promise not to cut spending on education.
• Martin. I suggest your assumptions about student wages growth are wrong. I work in IT so I can only talk from my own personal experience as a graduate 20+ years ago and that of the graduates we recruit each year.
  When I started in IT I was on Ј10k per year but as a graduate trainee I had bi-annual performance and pay rises for the first two years and even once off the graduate scheme I received fairly decent pay rises each year as my value and contribution to the firm increased. Its only about 25 years since I left University but yet my salary is more than 10 times what I started on as a graduate.
  Recognise that times may have changed but I still maintain that graduates that are bright and get a decent enough degree will be fast tracked far quicker than typical wages inflation.
  Personally I am not in favour of tuition fees at all so support a reduction from Ј9k to Ј6k or even lower. The last thing I would have wanted in the early stages of my career when I was working hard, buying a house, getting married etc would have been the thought of that additional debt to repay.
  I can understand the logic of repaying for my education as I am better employed than if I hadn't had a degree, the challenge is how to make that repayment reasonable and proportionate.
  For what its worth I came from a middle class background, I was the first one ever in my family to go to University at what was a decent enough red brick University and got a 2.1. Its what you do with your skills afterwards that counts.