Unpaid Nursing Home fees after death

A question about : Unpaid Nursing Home fees after death

My DH is executor to the will of a lady who passed away at the end of February.

She spent her last few years in a nursing home with dementia. She had little in the way of savings and therefore social services were contributing to her care, she was contributing her state pension and small private pension less the personal allowance.

From what has been uncovered so far there were two bank accounts, one in her name only (savings) and one in joint names with her only daughter. As far as we know her daughter was the elderly lady's Appointee and there was no EPA.

The joint account is the one her state pension and private pension were being paid into and the one the care home fees were coming out from.

There is an outstanding bill of just over Ј1,700. The social services have been helpful and told my DH that the money was being paid to them via direct debit but after payment became hit-and-miss they put the daughter onto a payment plan.

Now the lady has passed on the daughter has handed the bill over and wishes the estate to settle it. Is the estate liable for this? The savings account barely has enough money in it to cover the funeral!

The social services are sending out records of payments made and the bank is sending statements for both accounts - the joint account statements obviously only up until the date of the lady's demise.

Any help is much appreciated, DH is trying very hard not to involve the solicitor as that will cost money the estate frankly doesn't have.

Best answers:

• The local authority should have funded all the care home fees shortfall after pensions and attendance allowance had been used, once the ladies savings dropped below c Ј12k. Ask the Local Authority to do a retrospective financial assessment. Don't pay the bill until they complete it.
  The lady should also have been eligible for high rate of attendance allowance - was she getting it ?
• The lady had income of a small personal pension and her state pension ONLY as far as we can tell. There's certainly no mention of Attendance Allowance on the info received from Social Services.
  The shortfall between the nursing home cost and her contribution was made by SS (around Ј104 per week). The Social Services were paying the home in full every 4 weeks (in arrears) and the lady's contribution was supposed to be paid by direct debit to the Social Services, again every 4 weeks.
  The debt has arisen because the lady's representitive/Appointee first stopped the direct debit and then failed to consistently adhere to the payment plan. The payments should have been coming from the joint bank account (the now deceased and the Appointee).
  The question is, does the estate have to settle the bill or should it be down to the Appointee who has clearly had the money at her disposal but has failed to carry out her duties?
  If the estate has to settle the bill the estate will become insolvent.
• Right, I'm with you now. The lady's daughter has been helping herself to her mum's money by the sound of things. Three ways to go on this: inform the police of the theft; inform Social Services they have deliberately and wilfully allowed an older person to be financially abused; speak to Action on Elder Abuse (google for phone number) and talk it through and ask for guidance.
  Estates can sometimes take some considerable time to settle as the executors need to call in all the assets (in this case the missing pension money) before they can settle the debts.
  HTH
• as it was a joint account though, does that still make it theft? Im wondering if that makes the money in there a joint asset but Im not sure
• I think it's pretty obvious that it is theft - proving it may be difficult but perhaps not impossible.
  If the daughter is the beneficiary of what appears to be a small estate, I would be tempted if I were executor to take legal advice which would be charged to the estate and might result in the beneficiary finishing up with a fiver ! But that's just me - I hate relatives who rip off older people.
• I've looked up this old thread and in particular post number 6.
  For tax purposes:
  Quote:
• How dreadful.
  I wonder therefore if the technicality of gifting and therefore deprivation is an avenue then?
  The problem might be trying to obtain statements since the account legally belongs to daughter now.The bank will have to give the executor a tax certificate for interest on the deceased's share up to date of death but not sure whether there is an entitlement to obtain statements?
  Action on elder abuse as a starting point is a good suggestion from Errata to find out legalities.
• I think I would go back to the council's finance department and say that as they allowed the debt to arise it is up to them to chase the deceased daughter who was the financial representative for the outstanding debt. The beneficiaries of the will should also be made aware of the situation as they are the ones who will lose out. Essentially this could be sorted out amongst the family and if it isn't your DH can if he wishes decline to be executor.
  Sloughflint is absolutely correct the joint account route is often suggested by banks in this circumstance and is entirely inappropriate and open to abuse.
• https://www.firststopcareadvice.org.u...urces/2338.pdf
  Quote:
• Thank you!
  DH is currently chewing over todays phone calls.
  He called Action on Elder Abuse first, they essentially told him to gather together all bank statements etc and then go to the police quoting the 2006 Fraud Act, the section relating to Fraud by Abuse of Position.
  He then called the Public Guardian's office, they're sending out a form to fill in to tell us whether or not the daughter had Power of Attorney (we suspect not).
  He's also been back onto the Social Service finance department. They became helpful when the word 'police' was mentioned.
  We now know the exact dates the lady was in residential care (the start date is important in relation to this joint account) and the fact that from July 07 until Mar 08 NOTHING was being paid to Social Services. The amount owing at that point was a whopping Ј7,500. The daughter then paid each month with a bit on top to clear the arrears. Interesting how the story is slightly different each time we talk to someone!
  So, if this version is accurate, instead of getting away with Ј1,700 as we first thought, she's actually had seven and a half grand.
  Social Services should have been onto this surely? It's a screamingly obvious case of Elder Abuse. They seem to have willfully allowed an elderly person to be financially taken advantage of. Disgusting.
  DH is adamant he will continue as executor. The old lady in question was lovely, wouldn't hurt a fly. He says he owes it to her to sort this mess out.
  Oh and I'm also trawling my way through the Mental Capacity Act. Nice light reading for a Thursday afternoon!
• Ratty you and your OH going great guns and doing so well !
  One thing you might want to check out with Social Services is who signed the lady's contract with the care home? Was it her, or the devoted daughter ? If she signed it herself then SS should have worked with her to ensure her pension etc went towards her fees, if the devoted daughter signed it on her behalf I think that makes the daughter responsible.
  Sometimes SS can be a bit lax about who is officially liable and make informal arrangements with relatives.
  As you're talking to SS you could try asking them when care reviews for this lady were carried out, because if I'm remembering correctly her finances would have been part of that review. Should happen every six months.
  I'm so pleased Action on Elder Abuse were so helpful, sadly they have an awful lot of experience of financial abuse.
  If the lady had a social worker, and as part of her fees were being paid by the LA she probably did, part of a SW duty is to protect their clients from abuse and rescue them from abusive situations.
  Keep 'em all hopping !
• Ratty - going back to your original post you mention there is barely enough in the savings account to cover the funeral expenses. If the estate does not have sufficient to pay for the funeral costs they become the responsibility of the person arranging the funeral. Does this bring the issue back to the daughter paying either the care home backpayments or the funeral expenses if she arranged the funeral as there is not enough to pay both from the estate?
  I admire your OH for sticking with it. Is it simply the issue of the backpayments or is OH inclined to widening the issue to see the extent of possible missing funds?
• monkeyspanner - to answer your question regarding the savings account. There is enough there to cover the funeral with Ј150 left over. Or seen another way, enough to cover the care home bill with just over Ј1000 left over. Certainly nowhere near enough for both.
  Yes, daughter arranged the funeral and paid a deposit of around Ј600. She has of course demanded swift return of this via the solicitor. She's not talking to the funeral director now either and is still to arrange for her Mothers ashes to be interred.
  DH is most interested in widening the net. He's already sent letters to one Building Society and an Insurance Company as there's a missing account (that we know the deceased had) and where the heck has the life insurance gone?
  He's also asked for a trace of dormant bank accounts with the British Banker's Association (through my lost account dot org). Maybe there was an account or two the daughter didn't know about! Could we be that lucky?
  Errata - Yes the daughter signed all the paperwork regarding her Mum's contract with the care home. Mum had dementia so wasn't capable of signing anything. The LA say they will take court action against anyone who doesn't pay. So why is everyone trying to pass it onto the estate now. Surely it remains the daughter's liability.
  My head is starting to spin!