PPI After IVA

A question about : PPI After IVA

I have been directed to this forum from the PPI one, as apparently you guys should be able to help me out...

I received a letter from HFC stating that they have upheld my complaint.

Therefore have offered me a Full and Final Settlement figure of Ј2581.23.

The letter goes on to state that this sum of money will be used to offset my current debt.

The thing is I don't believe I have a debt with them?

The story is I entered an IVA and completed it in mid 2010. The final completion letter is dated 21/12/2012.

As part of this IVA HFC were one of my creditors, they entered a value of the debt to the IVA Practioner, this was modified once and agreed and at the completion of the IVA got their dividend.

Therefore as this has been completed and stamped by the High Court almost 2 years ago can HFC still say that I owe them money and will offset this claim against it?

I was under the impression that once completed the IVA was closed and any remaining debt written off?

Any help or advice, or similar experiences will be greatly received.

Thanks!

Tommy

Best answers:

• I have drafted this letter in reply what do you guys reckon?
  Dear Sir/Madam,
  Re: Account No : XXXXXXXXXX
  Your Reference : XXXXXXXXXXXX
  I refer to your letter dated 13 June 2012 in which you voice your decision to uphold my complaint re Payment Protection Insurance. The offer including payments made and interest amount to an offer of ЈXXXXXX.
  However you go on to state that you will be using this settlement to offset monies owed in relation to HFC Bank Account Number : XXXXXXXXXXX.
  I feel that I do not owe HFC any money, the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:
  1. On XXXXXXXX 2007 I entered an IVA, this IVA was accepted by my creditors, one of the creditors present at this meeting was HFC Bank Limited, the value of the vote quoted as ЈXXXXXXX The vote from HFC was to ‘Accept.’
  2. The terms of my IVA mention windfalls, the document is quoted as follows : ‘Should the Debtor receive any windfall, asset or inheritance during the course of the Arrangement which would be deemed after acquired property within the meaning of Section 307 of the Insolvency Act 1986, it must immediately be paid or transferred to the Supervisor up to the value necessary to pay the creditors in the Arrangement 100p in the Ј plus statutory interest.’
  3. On XXXXXXXXX 2010 I completed this IVA, the certificate of completion is dated XXXXX/2010. Therefore all debts I had at this time were considered fully implemented under the Insolvency Order (NI) 1989.
  An agreed dividend has been paid to HFC Bank in respect of this IVA, I further understand this dividend is offered as a Full and Final payment in respect of the debt, any remaining debt is then written off.
  This seems to be the same way as you have offered a ‘Full and Final Settlement’ in your letter dated 13 June 2012. An acceptance of this Full and Final Settlement offered by HFC would surely then leave me with no redress in the future? I find it unfair then that you should try to offset this money against a debt which has been settled in the eyes of the High Court, and subsequently written off, even more so that you have upheld that this is in fact money that I never should have been paying as the PPI in question was in fact mis-sold.
  From the terms of this IVA, which was accepted by HFC Bank and ruled on by the High Court you can see Windfalls are only mentioned ‘during the course of the Arrangement.’
  
  This arrangement is now finished and has been completed for almost 18 months.
  The arrangement was completed via a Full and Final payment, which was agreed by my Creditors on XXXXXXX 2010. The Resolution quoted as: ‘That the creditors accept the total sum of ЈXXXXXX in full and final settlement of the arrangement resulting in the final estimated dividend of XX pence in the pound.’
  Again please note the ‘Full and Final settlement.’
  For your reference I have included the following documents or (extracts from documents - to maintain my own privacy - any omissions are irrelevant to HFC - full copies of these documents can be made on request).
  A Copy of Your Latter dated XXXXXX 2012
  Certificate of Completion (Full Copy).
  Accecptance of IVA (Full Copy)
  Chairman’s Report dated XXXXXXXXX 2007 (Full Copy)
  Finally, having researched a little I have found a ‘plain English’ definition of ‘Full and Final’ as follows : Full and final settlement" is a legal term used to mean that an offer of payment is made for the whole of amount owed and if accepted you will not be able to claim any additional sums in the future no matter what happens.
  I feel then that this matches with my offer made during the IVA that should it be accepted that on completion of the Full and Final Payment and the IVA then no further claim to any monies owed can be made.
  This coincides with the Full and Final Offer that HFC have made to me, that should I have accepted it then no further redress could be made by me.
  If you require any further information, or documentation please feel free to contact me at the above address, or if convenient, via Telephone :
  Yours faithfully,
  Any opinions?
  Cheers
  Tommy
• HI Tomboy, I have had the same trouble but only with HFC, other banks have offered and after speaking to them agreed the IVA is closed and the PPI offered would be paid directly to me. On a note with HFC I have forwarded the complaint to the FOS, including evidence of the following, certificate of completion, open letter by the British Banks Association agreeing to the IVA protocol, the IVA protocol itself and highlighted section 6.2, a copy of the original creditors meeting highlighting HFC agreed shares and letters of communication between HFC and myself with a timeline, the only point I would add to your letter is that you will forward documents and complaint to FOS if they do not agree with your complaint, ie, there is not debt, regards Pete
• I have taken this from a thread on iva.co.uk, and it comes directly from David Mond, IP, who is also chairman of the DRF and a founder member of the joint BBA/Insolvency Service IVA standing committee.
  "If an asset or a contingent asset existed at any point from the outset of your IVA until the point of completion, then this would have to be included within the IVA and as such should, once it has been received, be paid for the benefit of your creditors regardless of when it is ultimately realised. Even if you have received your completion or termination documents and the IVA has concluded, then because of the principles of Trust law the asset belongs to the IVA creditors and still survives and as such, the funds would need to be paid directly to your former Supervisor.
  A large proportion of creditors are currently paying compensation cheques directly to the Supervisor/former Supervisor but in any case, if the compensation was paid to you following the completion of your IVA, your Supervisor would still have a claim against these funds and if he or she were to find out then you could be liable to further action and potentially disastrous consequences.
  Supervisors are able to pay reasonable costs in establishing and realising assets (costs of realisation) and a number of IPs are allowing from completed cases to keep a percentage of the claim as a gesture of goodwill in helping to increase the return to creditors. My suggestion is that if you feel you have potential PPI claims, then your first port of call should be to contact your former Supervisor who should be able to help you through the process."
  In short, if you can get away with it then good luck, but if you kick up too much fuss then HFC could very well pay it to the IVA supervisor, so you won't see it anyway. I know of a few IP's at the moment who are of the opinion that if they find out that people are acting this way then they will bankrupt them.
  Smacks a little of greed to me when people try to claim back money that they have already had written off, but that is only a personal opinion.
• Thanks for the info guys. Peterg04 keep me updated on ow you get on and Gimpsdad thanks for that info too.
  I also see your point about claiming money that was written off however HFC have sent the letter detailing the PPI. the reclaim only covs PPI that I actually paid whilst in the loan agreement. Therefore I am off the opinion that it was money I should never have been paying and surely the fact that the complaint has been upheld then HFC agree with this.
  I am not trying to claim back anything I never paid, only what I did prior to the IVA.
• Hi Tomboy, I spoke to one of the head staff that my IP has working for him and asked her how I stood with PPI and HFC and other banks, short answer, the IVA was completed apply for what you can we will not ask for any you have completed your agreement
• Hi Tomboy also see my thread "PPI after IVA to Offset account referred to FOS with evidence", hopefully will give you some hope regards
• An IVA is an alternative to BR, and in BR any PPI belongs to the OR as it as an asset that existed pre BR. It is the same with IVA, the asset existed when the IVA was entered into. I have seen a few people successfully claim it back post IVA, but how long you can get away with it is open to debate.
  It is not up to the FOS to rule on an asset position in regards to an Insolvency estate by all accounts, so complaining to them relies on ignorance within the FOS to uphold any claim, and ignorance on the part of a creditor to give in to it.
  I repeat, if you can get away with it good luck, but you are running a big risk. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that an IP will bankrupt someone post IVA, even if only to make an example of them and stop this nonsense once and for all.
  I don't often side with creditors, but to ask them to write off debt, and then chase them for money that they have already written off smacks of pure greed and HFC have no need to give the OP any money back whatsoever, in fact, under the IVA protocol they should give it to the IP for fair distribution to the whole estate. I don't doubt that PPI was mis-sold in the vast majority of cases, but that isn't the issue, the issue is whether the money is owed post IVA, which it isn't.
• What rubbish, the whole reason PPI claims came about is because of Bank greed, we are only claiming that which would not have been included in the IVA had it not been added into the loans which I did not request as I worked in a very secure job and did not need insurance, the total of insurance costs on all my debts totalled about Ј200 per month, had this not been added I could have possibly managed and not entered into the IVA, so please dont quote greed when it has become clear this is why the banks are paying millions back to customers. Whether FOS agree or disagree I have had offers from three of my creditors with no questions asked and accepted that the IVA has been settled and realised, they are happy to pay direct to me and not my IP from the old IVA.
• Hi Tomboy unable to put link in so just type PPI and IVA in search forum and it will show in list
• I must state again that this is not money that was written off. The value quoted is pre IVA and was paid by me prior to the IVA commencing. It is NOT anything that was written ofF when I went along the lines of an IVA.
  I am wondering also if an IP can bankrupt someone to make an example of them. I can't see that being legal after an arrangement was successfully completed.
• I am sorry, I completely disagree with Gimpsdad. The whole issue of IVA is indeed a grey area, and how banks and supervisors deal with you will all depend on you individual circumstance. If your IVA is fully completed, and your supervisor has not made a conscious decision to encourage you to apply for PPI mis selling then you are in a different situation to someone has yet to complete or has been asked to submit PPI reclaims during the repayment periods.
  IVAs are indeed an alternative to BRs, they are NOT the same. While it is true that as a bankrupt the Insolvency Service has declared that PPI reclaims remain an asset. They have refused to do the same for IVAs. IVA's are a legal agreement between two parties, BR are not.
  If you can genuinely proove that you have been mis sold PPI then the financial institution are required to give careful consideration to your complaint and compnesate you appropriately. If you have completed then you have nothing fro compensation to be offset against.
  During your a persons IVA they bank is liekly to have sold the debt to offset losses. Additionally, a person in an IVA will be making repayments which banks have argued unsuccessfully they have not received as a consequence of selling on the debt. Unfortunately they took a chance and lost out.
  Increasingly, its been shown in a number of instances, if PPI hadn;t have been in place, debt spirals may have not occured.
  My final point is on the issue off PPI as an asset. I can understand why the Insolvency Service has said in BRs they money remains a live asset. The institute would not have agreed to the debt write down and are liekly to have received scraps form the person involved.
  In IVA's very often repayments are larger (over 50% of outstanding money, but each one is different) and it is a joint agreement between you and the finance institute. PPI having been added to debts would have artificially inflated the debt due. For instance, in my circumstance, PPI payments accounted for over 30% of the total debt. It has been argued successfully that as such, the dividend repaid to the financial instution have been inflated by that amount.
  The key element of a successful PPI reclaim is to return you to the original position you would have been in had PPI not have been mis sold to you. As such I have submitted 13 claims against various organisations, with advice from my IVA provider. 8 have settled properly with the odd hiccup. 5 have now been referred to the FOS for consideration. One is HFC.
  Early discussions with FOS indicate that they will consider the claim, that is successful they will instruct to repay to me and not to the IVA supervisor who is very clear, that in my situation he could not redistribute as this would leave them then open to a challenge from me, and not a route that his practice is willing to leave themselves open to.
  He is also clear however, that since 2009, all new IVAs would be expected to be paid to him and repaid, as PPI process is now in place. You have a choice of claiming or not claiming. If you do or don't its up to the individual. But the money is to be redistributed if you do.
  So for Tom, stick to your guns mate. Refer this on. You may fulfill the criteria to get through the grey of IVA world and get to keep your dough from HFC. If though at any point you IVA supervisor during the period of your IVA has suggested to you that you make a claim, then the IVA provider may ask for the cash for redistribution.
• Thanks for that detailed reply Johnb0y. My claim was done on my own with no input from my IVA IP. This was completed in 12/2010 and I did call my IP to ask and was basically told we re finished with you do work away, which I did.
  Thanks again
• Hi Johnb0y, enjoyed your comments, can you tell me when you forwarded to FOS have you had a case number and how long before you got it after your complaint, I have sent in a complaint against HFC, I posted it recorded which I know was signed for but its not on their system yet, also cheeky question, was by any chance one of you creditors who paid up RBS. we had a Nat West loan I have spoken to them and they have said if the account was paid via the IVA and completed they would pay us, total of Ј11000, would be nice to know this is true thanks regards Pete
• Hello guys,
  I've just registered on here today and was doing some searching for my question below however after reading this thread it seems I pretty much have my answer.
  There are some very detailed, informative responses in here so I'd like to say thanks to those that have posted. I am in similar circumstances however I'll explain below.
  I've recently made a complaint to MBNA about some PPI that I believe I was missold.
  I have written to them with the evidence and they've wrote back advising they are investigating my complaint and will respond within 28 days. The problem I've got is this;
  I've been in an IVA which I finished paying into in December last year. I haven't as of yet had all my paperwork through my Insolvency Practitioner as there is a problem with Revenue and customs. The Revenue and Customs have contacted my IP and other IP's advising that they shouldn't have been charging them tax on IVA's which means my IP are entitled to claim any tax back which in turn means that by law the tax owed has to be repaid to my three creditors.
  My brother who is also in an IVA and is still in it now made a claim recently to Egg about a missold PPI and he was successful however they have written to him explaining that although he was successful the refund has to under his arrangement be repaid to his creditors which means he doesn't get a penny of the claim.
  He is gutted as he was expecting a claim of around 3k so he's thinking about challenging it but tbh I don't think he has much of a chance of seeing that money.
  I am now worried that MBNA are going to do the same with me as the IVA I was in has not yet been finalised as in I have not had all the completed paperwork through. Firstly this is no fault of my own as I should have had this paperwork months back and secondly I have finished paying back in December so realistically any potential refund if I'm eligible should be paid to me and not my creditors if this happens if I'm correct?
  And finally as mentioned above by others if this PPI wasn't inserted in the first place which it was without my prior consent or knowledge then perhaps I wouldn't have been in this financial state in the first place this is my argument.
  I'd like to stress no decision has been made yet as to whether I am due a refund so I am only speaking hypothetically at this present time so it's a case of what if really.
  Can anyone advise me if they were to end up paying the money to my creditors am I by right entitled to claim this money or possibly challenge it in court?
  Thanks.
• From what I have read and have been told by the FOS the most important document seems to be the Certificate of Completion. I think the date that it ultimately shows will be the determining factor as to whether your IVA is considered closed. Although to be fair I am just presuming that on what I have learnt over the last few days. Hopefully someone more knowledgable will pop along soon.