PCN company car

A question about : PCN company car

Hi, my husband has recieved a PCN for wait for it... The peel centre!

I'm happy to follow all the steps (did one for myself last year for Liverpool airport) but just wanted a bit of advice. The letter from his car company states they are passing the responsibility to him to deal with so that's not a problem, and they don't seem to have confirmed that he was the driver. I'm allowed to drive the car too so technically they can't.

How do I address this in my appeals? Do I have to admit he was the driver?

Can I say he is acting for the registered keeper and give our address?

Any advice would be very welcome.

Best answers:

• you address it as keeper (from the keeper, your husband if its hired or leased to him)
  the template appeal specifically says keeper (I could have been the driver)
  dont forget, EXCEL are now in the IPC so have the IAS kangaroo court now, same as JLA is also IPC now too
  do not admit who was driving, definitely NOT
• Thanks for your reply.
  Would this work as an initial letter?
  Date
  Dear Sirs
  Re: PCN No. ....................
  I have been passed this 'PCN' to reply to from xxxlease company, as I am the usual keeper of the car, though not always the driver. Please find permission attached for me to deal with this. If you are unwilling to let me deal with this as the de facto keeper, I will be making a complaint to Steve Clark at the BPA.
  My postal address for future correspondence is xxxxxxxxxxx
  My email address for future correspondence is xxxxxxxx
  I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:
  a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
  b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
  c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
  d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations.
  e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself or the driver is denied.
  Your clients should be thoroughly ashamed of the shoddy way you treat consumers visiting their premises. The landowner will be made fully aware of this matter and your response, which I will forward to their CEO when I complain in writing and via social media, as appropriate. Parking firms like yours fail to demonstrate even a basic understanding of customer service. The reputation of your business model appears to be more akin to a protection racket than 'parking management'. Your ATA may offer sound-bites about driving up standards or fight for motorists' rights but in reality they are not a regulator; they merely exist to represent the interests of paying members, in order to gain access to DVLA data. The public have no faith in the private parking industry and, as far as I have seen, your firm has not shown itself to be any different than the ex-clampers with whom you share a membership.
  The purpose of this communication is:
  1. Formal challenge
  There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case.
  2. ''Drop hands'' offer
  The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law and responding to your junk mail dressed up to impersonate a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed Ј15. Therefore, this is a formal "drop hands"offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at Ј18 per hour plus my out-of-pocket expenses and damages for harassment.
  3. Notice of cancellation of contract
  I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered by you and certainly was not expressly agreed. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - IAS or POPLA, then the contract ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation & Additional Payments) Regulations apply now to every consumer contract, save for a few exemptions, which parking contracts are not. It is the will of Parliament following the EU Consumer Rights Directive, that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts now - not implied consent - and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance.
  You have failed to meet these requirements. The foisting of unexpected contracts like this on consumers, by stealth, is a thing of the past.
  By replying to the challenge you are acknowledging receipt and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you decide to persist with this unwarranted threat, I will be put to unnecessary expense and hours of time in appealing or defending this matter. As such, you will be liable for my costs and a pre-estimate of my loss - and in contrast with yours, mine is genuine - is that this sum will be likely to exceed Ј100.
  I have kept proof of submission of this challenge. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.
  Yours faithfully,
  {the registered keeper's name}
• nope, as they are not in the BPA, I did point this out earlier (unless this is a 2014 pcn of course)
  and the bottom part would be changed by removing registered
• Can I keep in the POFA 2012 bit?
• Obviously it's the keeper's name, not the registered keepers name (at the bottom).
  If you wish, you can remove the "rant" section (everything from "Your clients should be thoroughly ashamed" to "likely to exceed Ј100").
• Aaah I see so do I have any protection if thy refuse to acknowledge us as de facto keeper?
• Would this work?
  Date
  Dear Sirs
  Re: PCN No. ....................
  I have been passed this 'PCN' to reply to from xxxlease company, as I am the usual keeper of the car, though not always the driver. Please find permission attached for me to deal with this.
  My postal address for future correspondence is: xxx
  My email address for future correspondence is: xxx
  I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:
  a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
  b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
  c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
  d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations.
  e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself or the driver is denied.
  There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case.
  I have kept proof of submission of this challenge. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.
  Yours faithfully,
  Xxx
  {the keeper's name}
• And should I ask for a popla appeal code?
• What does in the ipc mean? Is popla irrelevant? What would my next steps be after that letter and is the letter ok?
• The pcn doesn't mention BPA, or POFA, but it does say that I can appeal to IAS.
  Any advice? This has thrown me a bit as it was all POFA and popla for my pcn last year.
• There are 2 Approved Trade Associations (ATAs) ... the British parking Association (BPA, whose appeal route is POPLA), and the Independent Parking Committee (IPC, whose appeal route is IAS).
  Excel were BPA members but jumped ship to IPC. Therefore you cannot get a POPLA appeal as IPC members offer IAS. IAS is a kangaroo court (legally-sound appeals are rejected by their nameless "barrister" assessor) and many believe appeals to them are a waste of time and effort.
• So ought i just to pay it?
  What happens when appeal and iAs appeal fails?
  My husband is going to return tomrrow to see if the signage is still BPA or if it has been changed to ipc. In case we have a line of defense that we thought they were BPA regulated.
• Ok again thank you for replies.
  My new letter. Responses would be very welcome.
  PCN
  Date
  Dear Sirs
  Re: PCN No. ....................
  I have been passed this 'PCN' to reply to from xxxlease company , as I am the usual keeper of the car, though not always the driver. Please find permission attached for me to deal with this.
  My postal address for future correspondence is xxxx
  My email address for future correspondence is: xxxx
  I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:
  a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
  b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
  c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land. I require the contract with the landowner is produced, as Excel are not the landowners and I contend you have no legal standing to pursue this charge.
  d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations. In addition, since you fail to allow a POPLA appeal, the POFA requirement on the driver is removed.
  e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself or the driver is denied.
  f). This is not a parking ticket, it is an unsolicited invoice.
  g). It doesn't comply with Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999
  There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter. I am aware that your trade association also offers a further challenge to the IAS, however I have serious concerns over the true independence and effectiveness of the IAS and should they rule against my challenge, which I WILL make, I reserve my rights to reject their findings.
  I also reserve the right to see the evidence of the other party before a decision is made.
  I have kept proof of submission of this challenge. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.
  Yours faithfully,
  Xxxx
  {the keeper's name}
• Why are you still mentioning POPLA? (We've already covered this).
• Read on another thread that because they are not using popla any more that they can't get me under POFA.
  Is that not true then?
  In addition if their signage isn't updated from BPA, I can still request popla?
• If the PCN is dated after they switched to the IPC then POPLA cannot be used - it is IAS.
  IPC are an ATA - Excel being in an ATA means they can get keeper details using POFA. Indeed they already did - the registered keeper was your company/lease company, and they have passed the NtK to you.
  If the signage says BPA (with no mention of IPC) then you have another appeal point - the signage cannot legally enforce a contract as it does not convey correct information, thus breaches the CPUTR and UTCCR. (Google the acronyms). But it does not mean you can demand POPLA.
• Ok if I take that out is the rest of the letter good to go please?