Major Changes To Forum Policy

A question about : Major Changes To Forum Policy

I called a brainstorm of the team at MSE Towers today, as i've been worried about the forums and what I perceive to be an increase in nastiness.

We tackled three issues and while I will write more on each one as it happens we came up with some ideas we may try. The following are my hastily tapped out notes and thoughts (my RSI is bad so its not polished)

I know whatever we decide some won't like it, but its my responsibility to make the difficult decisions, for collective best for the forum.

However i thought i would let you know what we're thinking - this is an unofficial first post though, when actual changes comes a proper detailed post about them will happen

1. MSE team on the forums.

I've noticed that on the back of many of the official MSE threads, often the first post is a quite antagonistic post saying its already been discussed or you're too late.

This forgets two things...

a. Often these links are deliberately so there will be detailed info, propritory researched and checked out in MSE's official name for the mass of people coming from the weekly email.

Sometimes its a new threa because the nature of the discussion (due to arguments, or potentially dodgy codes etc) aren't suitable for the mass audience from the email.

The biggest complaint we get about the whole site is people don't like the forums and can't undersand them. That's why we do a special format. Then when the first post says why've you done this, there's already a thread and sends people elsewhere - it can be destructive and puts people off using the forum community.

b. MSE news and articles are very detailed and take time to write, many times people think we simply spot it on the forum, then don't credit it to the first poster. Actually its commonly that we've been working on the detail for hours or days (we get embargo'd info which we can't publish until certain times) but haven't published until its 100% confirmed.

Yet a good chunk of the blame is the fact I think my team and I ignore some of the forum rules and etiquette.

So we're going to try and improve, as well as asking regulars to cut us some slack.

i. We will check to see if there are existing threads, if there are and its not appropirate to insert our post atthe top of them we will link to them in our original posts

ii. When we first spot something its likely we're going to write a forum post or news story on (e.g. Newcastle 5% bond) we'll pop a quick heads up in the forum saying we're about to check this out, thought you'd like a look type think.

iii. We are looking at having a comments system in the news story, which will work with, but seperate from the forum

2. Rudeness to newbies.

Sadly new posters seem to get abuse more often than they used to. Often its because they ask questions that've already been asked, or post in the wrong place.

Theres also sometimes a this is our board attitude that seems to not want new posters coming in and ruining a pre-established clique - and that goes against the philosophy of the site.

A. We're going to see if we can instute a 'newbie bubble' so newbies first three posts will have a brightly designed reminder than they're a newbie and to cut them some slack (it will disappear once they post more). Hopefully for most of our posters this wee reminder will help - I want a be especially nice to newbies rule

B. We will also be asking people to report those being abusive to newbies (and yes we're aware some may be spammers, trolls or AEs, but then they should simply be reported to abuse or spam button pressed and not responded to anyway)

C. Also we're going to make it that if a newbie is starting a new thread for the first time, a note pops up asking if they've checked whether the subject already exists and where to get info - this will be tailed by the board.

D. For long threads we're also considering asking regular forumites to write a summary of the regular Q&As (as repeatedly asking things answered earlier in the thread is an obvious annoyance - though of course in long threads its understanable ) which they can then PM a board guide to ask them to insert in the first post for clairty (at the board guides discretion - we will also ensure it is not seen as an 'official MSE' answer.

After that we would ask that instead of regulars getting frustrated and writing this has been asked before which doesn't actually help the newbie, people post this is answered in the first post with a link to the first post.

3. General Nastiness

It's time for a tougher stance, and I've told the abuse team that while in the past we tried hard not to PPR long standing posters, that protection sadly has to go; if someones persistetly causing trouble they will be PPRd. This one is starting immediately.

While people who are on here to cause trouble will be PPRd immediately, we also have to look at generally good and helpful posters, who sometimes get in spats, or cliques, or push it to far.

For that we're considering introducing a new system, to give people a legitimate expectation of cautions.... involving yellow card (official caution), red card (two week suspension) and black card (PPR). Obviously two yellow cards gets you a red etc (all barring the black will be anonymous)

We are also lookng at post counts and thanks counts. Currently a (very) few posters with high post counts seem to act as if they are invincible and above the rules.

Though sometimes those posts are in the non-MoneySaving boards, and don't actually show any real contribution to the wealth of MoneySAving knowledge.

So we are considering discounting posts and thanks in the discussion baords from the post and thanks count - to make them a more reflective indicator. (obviously if people start posting nonesense in other boards just to build post count then they'll be deleted - red carded etc)

Summary

I love the forum, think 99% of the users are helpful or having fun, and think this resource is now unparalleled in the UK money world for the size, depth and quality of the community.

Sadly a few people are out to ruin it, and a few people who aren't occassionally lose their rag or get cliquey or have personality clashes

We want to try, especially in such a crucial time for the economy, to make it a better place to be for everyone and hope the above rules will do that.

I've written this at speed, please don't pick up on individual phrasing or words (franlky my RSI means i'm not being as careful as usual). I will look at the responses and feedback, but ultimately at this stage I think we need to try a number of the options above.

Martin

Update 11pm - some clarifications

Some RSI short clarifications.

1. The cards won't be public barring the black one (which is a PPR same as now - Posting Priviledges Removed) they will be communicated by PM
2. We are removing thanks in the non MS boards from the thanks count not removing thanks from there
3 . By Non-moneysaving boards I ONLY mean the MS Arms boards (inc discussion time) and possibly House prices board (tba) so things like techie board, competition time etc are MoneySaving boards
4. As discussed many times before we are a report an abuse site and that's not changeable for a whole host of legal reasons - so post moderation is not an option
5. BGs are not part of the abuse team and don't have a role in it - so more powers wouldn't help - and we again cannot mix the two.
6. As for newbies, we are aware most won't read guides. Hence the when they try and start a new thread, it will give options there and then with more info.
7. As for FAQ in each forum, if people want to put them together great.
8. This is an unofficial heads up, when the rules are starting - there will be official announcements for all of them

Update Fri 10.30am more clarifications

Ok a fwe clarifications.

1. You WILL still be able to thank every post. Just posts in the MSA, Discusssion time, MS polls, and poss house prices debate boards WONT be added to the thanks count.

2. Why only three posts for newbies. We had a lot of discussion on this. Ultimately the newbie warning is a psychological one, a big bold visual reminder from the MSE team this person is new and not used to what they're doing. Its a piece of voodoo if you like - but often that works - people are generally good and will respect it.

Yet if we extend it too far (ie first 20 posts) it loses its power. Its not that we want to say after 3 posts you can be rude, but that the first three posts are SPECIAL and should be treated as such. Yet there is no way 20 posts can be as special. Hence why its down to three, though if technology allows it may be 3 posts or the first 24 hours whichever is long)

3. As for how the FAQ will work.

This isnt formulated yet, but my idea, roughly is. Someone in a long thread (note for new users a thread is a single topic in a specific board (e.g. old style) that people can reply to) writes a summary of points so far and posts it calling it a summary post.

Then they PM the board guides of that board and say they've done a summary - the board guide can then cut and paste it into the first post in the thread and then add the following above it (and below the OPs post) - we'll add formating though, but words something like this.

Inserted by Board Guide at time date
The following is summary of info in the thread. Thanks to MoneySaver CheekyChops for writing it.
Please note this is a user summary, MSE cannot take responsibility for the info in it.

Best answers:

• First thought is that those are generally good ideas.
• The nature of the beast and all that.
  And a lot of us (probably the majority??) are happy in the fact that its your board and you do what you like with it.
  Oh... And PS. How is married life??????
• Just a bit disappointed at the prospect of losing the ability to "thank" on the Arms boards. Even if they don't count towards the displayed thanks total, it would be good to still be able to show appreciation of a post on those boards in some way.
• Go for it.
  It can be scary posting on any forum, and I think the 'protect bubble' is a valid idea. Anyone at all can post, and there are some vulnerable individuals here and there who, I imagine, can get quite worried and upset by the rough and tumble that they can stray into inadvertently, whereas others wouldn't give it a second thought. People don't always stop to consider who might be on the receiving end of a throwaway, sarcastic remark
• A big thank you, Martin and the MSE team. Not in a negative way (eg what took you so long,) as it's clear you've all been keeping an eye, but this has been a long time coming and anything that helps restore the COMMUNITY spirit around here is more than welcome. This isn't to say that everything's gone to pot; there are some great people around these forums. I just hope some people who have been scared off will come back soon. It is rather sad (as in ) that it has had to come to this at all, really. Any help you guys need in writing any of these guides, I'm only a PM away (being out of work, I could do with something constructive to do).
  Edit: Never mind Martin's RSI, I've been at the vodka this evening...part 2 of my post....I think people mistake kindness for weakness and it's good to see that a bit more of a hardline stance is now being taken as some people have been taking the proverbial lately.
• a brilliant idea about flagging the newbies for a short while.
  Think we've all had little spats so i for one will try harder.
  (except for so and so and so and so and so and so)
• I think the "be especially nice to newbies" idea is great, I hate going on to the benefits/employment boards and see newbies being flamed by regulars, it happens far too often and it's awful. I think I shall start being a bit more proactive in reporting bullying and such from now on as well because I think this site is brilliant but there are some people that let it down.
• Many thanks Martin...
  Problem was that this time last year newbies could post links to offers etc, and many of us got it wrong with the 'Newbies'
  There were so very many spammers around then that it was unbelievable...
  Thank you so much for introducing the rule that newbies cannot post links until they reach a certain post count...
• Martin, can I be first to give you one of these for not using a spell checker you lazy git
  Guess thats just put me on the banned list
• thanks martin
  too often i see a really negative or sarcastic answer to a posters thread/question. sometimes its just as hard to post in here where we are all relatively incognito as asking a friend for help.
  i like the idea of a protective 'bubble' for newbies.
  we always say in work that while we may have heard the same question over and over again, ( have you any late deals?? etc) that may well be that persons first time of asking....
• Very glad about the be nice to newbies rules, I've been singing that song for along time on my MSE home of the Debate House Price Board, and seen it happen elsewhere.
• I've been at the vodka...what's your excuse, Tigs? See, this is why I rarely drink...can't handle it any more.