Drawdown charges

A question about : Drawdown charges

Following a discussion in another thread and me dropping subtle hints to Snowman about including drawdown charges in his spreadsheet, then him suggesting I compile the data ... I've attempted to do this for all platforms in his spreadsheet (except Fidelity as they require you to take advice or go via their subsiduary and pay unspecified fees).

Being lazy I did look to see if someone had already done it but only found this which seems to be out of date: https://www.ftadviser.com/r/FT%20Publ...p061Table2.pdf

I've split the fees into 3 groups - initial, annual and annual when over 75 for both capped and flexible drawdown, and given a summary below. These don't include additional fees such as optional additional GAD calculations, one off payments, setting up additional tranches, death valuations etc. but the full data is at the bottom.

I've assumed that where there's an income change fee, this will apply on any GAD review. Where there's a fee for compulsory GAD reviews I've included a third of it pre 75 and all of it 75+ in the annual charge.

The summarised totals are in the first two quotes below and the full data including other charges are in the last one. The summaries include VAT but the raw data doesn't. Where no charge is specified in the platfom's fee list I've usually assumed zero, though for things like in-specie withdrawals I guess some platforms don't offer it.

Note these are only fees specifically related to drawdown, they don't include SIPP annual management fees, fund fees etc.

Obviously don't rely on this, check on the provider's website for full details of charges. There are bound to be some mistakes...let me know if you spot any.

Sorry about the formatting but hopefully Snowman can incorporate it into his spreadsheet to make it easier to view. If anyone knows how to post tables readably please feel free!

You should be able to copy and paste into a text/csv document and import into a spreadsheet so you can view it properly (in Excel go into Data/From Text).

Capped drawdown - these fees include VAT:
Quote:

Flexible drawdown, including VAT:
Quote:

Raw data - full list of charges - note these fees do not include VAT:
Quote:

Best answers:

• Sorry the formatting got totally screwed - it looked fine before I posted... will try to sort.
• Shouldn't it be considered an oversight not to include provider fees? You can't be in Drawdown without paying the provider too.
• Well done for doing this Zagles
  It is difficult to get tables to format on the forum.
  is it worth setting up a simple spreadsheet and using one of the cloud storage options (google drive, sky drive etc) to link to the spreadsheet from your first post?
• Out of interest can anything beat 0.35% + Ј100 per year for capped drawdown (including provider and fund)?
• Zagfles, I think there are as you say a number of ways of incorporating the figures in the platform comparison spreadsheet. We can discuss what we think is best.
  At the moment I am trying to understand the figures, in the sense of what charges would actually be incurred by someone who chose say capped drawdown, and what scenarios and events would trigger the various charges in the table. Partly due to my complete ignorance of charging structures for drawdown and some of the more practical issues.
  I am thinking we can lose some of the full list of charges columns, and make those additional charges over the main capped and flexible charges?
  So we can lose the 'set up capped' and 'set up flexible' columns? Although worth renaming columns 1 and 4 from 'initial' to 'set-up'?
  I am not quite sure what the difference is between the 'annual capped charge' and 'annual flexible charge' in the 'full list of charges' and the 'annual charge under 75' in the 'capped drawdown' and 'flexible drawdown' columns. Which other charges make up the difference?
  I am also confused with where in the numbers you have incorporating the 1/3rd of the compulsory GAD charge (pre 75)? Can you give me an example of where it is incorporated?
  And why is there only one 'annual charge 75+' column in the 'full list of charges' columns and yet amounts after 75 seem to vary depending on whether the drawdown is capped or flexible (looking at columns 3 and 6).
  And I am struggling to interpret what charges apply if drawdown is taken through a tax free lump sum (but with no income) vs drawdown with a lump sum and income payments. In which figures are the 'income payments' included?
  I wonder if it is worth putting in some links to general information about what drawdown is into your first post. There are probably readers who don't understand the difference between capped and flexible drawdown and won't understand that for capped drawdown there are Government Actuary Department limits to ensure that capital isn't eroded, and the 3 yearly (or yearly) need to review the upper withdrawal limit.
  Thanks again for your work on this I am sure forumites are going to find this useful
  You can probably tell from my silly questions why I didn't try to undertake this task myself.
• Thank you Thank you Thank you - just look at them synapses spark!
• Thanks again Zagfles.
  I've finally caught up with you in understanding the figures.
  Here is version 2.
  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxA...it?usp=sharing
  I've now included a table underneath the numbers of the formulaes that are being applied (I've labelled the columns A to Q in the vertical description wording and the formulae refer to those). The formulae in the first column of the capped and the third column of the flexible correspond to the formulae used to create your original figures (the formulae agree your figures in every case).
  I am also suggesting formulae for different options e.g. drawdown with no income. I've not set those formulae up as yet. Are those formulae correct and what options would it be useful to include? The idea would be to have inputs to enable the costs to be calculated on the desired basis e.g. an input 'is drawdown cash only or cash + income?' and an input 'is income likely to change at GAD reviews?'
  I've changed the colours of the full list of charges columns. I think the blue columns are those incorporated into the first 6 columns, and the pink ones are additional charges that are occurred when other events happen. I can change the order of the columns later to keep the blue and pink columns together.
  I'm thinking that it might be worth separating out the flexible and capped figures into 2 tables of numbers. If you are heading for capped drawdown you don't want the flexible figures there to confuse you. What do you think?
  Youinvest: should the annual capped charge, annual flexible charge and the annual charge 75+ be Ј60pa and the income payment and income payment 75+ charge be Ј60pa, to reflect that you effectively pay Ј60pa for the drawdown and an extra Ј60pa for taking an income under their charges?
• Many thanks to both Zagfles and Snowman. I was also caught with this. I am in capped drawdown with H&L with a Ј130k Portfolio in 14 Funds. No shares or etfs. Hence looking at Snowman's excel I could see I was really suffering at H&L. I then looked at the drawdown charges. For all other providers this made a dramatic change. H&L were at least competitive. Fidelity looked very good so I e mailed them to see whether or not I could transfer without their ISA advice. To date no real answer.
  I found the combination of Zagfles and Snowman to be of great benefit. I will probably stay with H&L but perhaps might try for a small reduction in the 0.45%.
  Once again, many thanks to you both.
• Could you add X-O to the list for comparison.
• Further to my previous message #15, Fidelity have now replied:
  In order to transfer an existing income drawdown pension into the Fidelity SIPP we will refer you to our advisory partner ‘Retire Direct’. There can however be instances where we will permit you to not seek advice through ‘Retire Direct’. Regardless of this, you will still have to discuss your particular pension with them so we can assess the waving of advice. ‘Retire Direct’ will also be able to discuss the charges in relation to income drawdown and GAD reviews.
  So I think there will be some additional charges.
• Blimey O'Riley. Considerable changes to drawdown in the budget.