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A question about : marketing companies [TEXT DELETED BY FORUM TEAM]

THIS IS A VERY LONG POST, SO PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT FULLY.

Hi guys. I am new to the forum, so I think this is probably the right forum for this, but feel free to move it if nececary.

I would like to give details of a major scam existing, with many many branches. I will be as detailed as I can. I worked for these people in the near past, and would like to aid others in avoiding this same scam.

How did this happen to me?

Well, in an effort to find a new job, I posted my CV online on a monday evening to Monster.co.uk. The following day, I was contacted by a company called T.H. Nationwide Limited, and was told that my CV was forwarded to them, and that they were very impressed with my CV. This seemed a little to quick, but I just expected that they were on a recruitment drive. They invited me to a one-on-one interview with their managing director, Tai Hussain, on the wednesday morning.

I went for the first round interview with these people, and was immediately impressed with their company. They claimed to have contracts with Disney, Warner Brothers, Universal Pictures and many other high-flying companies. They told me they had 28,000 offices world-wide.

They invited me to attend a second round interview with themselves, this was on the thursday. This would be to show me the ground-floor entry level of the business. I was placed out in the field with Lucas Wantega (surname may be spelt wrong). This proved to be an interesting day. I watched Lucas as he worked at the ground-level (door-to-door marketing for the british red cross).

I was then told to go back to the office for the third and final round interview. this was basically a formality, and was told I had got the job. The progression was explained to me fully again by Tai Hussain, after Lucas Wantega had broken it down for me over lunch during the day.

Here is the breakdown as it was explained to me:-

DISTRIBUTOR (4-6 weeks)

equivalent to national minimum wage for a 40 hour job.

responsibilities:

learn the marketing system we use. Reach a consistent level in the field. Have a good attitude to the business.

TEAM LEADER (3-9 months)

equivalent to Ј300-Ј500 per week

responsibilities:

learn how to train others. improve your own field work. take out 2nd round interviews. be able to teach others the marketing system

ASSISTANT MANAGER (12 MONTHS)

Ј35,000 per annum.

responsibilities:

as above, but also take 1st round interviews. learn legal paper-work. manage own campaign under advice from MD

MANAGING DIRECTOR (12 MONTHS)

Ј50,000 per anum

responsibilities:

to own and run own office, based in another town. supported by the company director (Tai Hussain)

as you can tell from that, I was told that this was a 3 year plan, and that I was guaranteed managing director position in three years. This sounded superb, and I took the position.

I was ripped of by this company. It was not made clear to me when I started that this was comission only. I earned within the five weeks i was in this company (and I was promoted 3 days in!) the grand total Ј120. I am expecting to recieve a further Ј45 total. So for five weeks working for this company, I expect to recieve Ј165 total.

Best answers:

• I would now like to give you some details of the full company methodology. The details I give here list DS-MAX as the company, that is the overall american company (although there are many other names, pro sales for example). After this I would like to give a list of known names - and if ANY of these names are mentioned during an interview, or it looks like this company, then RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN!
  There are five components of the dsmax marketing system. They are the five steps, the eight working habits, the impulse factors and the law of averages. It is all door to door.
  The five steps:
  Introduction
  Short Story
  Presentation
  Close
  Rehash
  Basically, When you introduce yourself to someone you should smile, make eye contact and be excited to meet him or her. In the short story you explain why you are there. In the presentation you do your pitch, in the close you get the person to consent to buy and in the rehash phase you suggest buying many things to the person. Realize that I could go on a lot more about this -- I used to do many meetings on each step -- but I just want people to get the general idea. This formula can be used to sell anything. Of course it does not always go smoothly. There are often questions and interruptions. But these five steps work.
  The eight steps to a good working ethic
  Have a great attitude
  Work your territory
  Be on time
  Maintain your attitude
  Be prepared
  Know why you are here and what you doing
  100% Effort
  Take control
  Consider a day in the field like a work out. Through out the 12-hour day you should always be happy, always focus on your goals, always take control, and always hit every business or residence in your area. You can not leave any of these steps out! If you are working a full 12 hours, but are not maintaining a positive attitude -- you will not make money and vice versa. If you skip doors -- behind some of those doors are the yesses that could have been part of your law of averages. If you are on time and are prepared, but you do not take control, the customers will walk all over you.
  The law of averages is based on the number of people you see, some will say yes. Ds-max is not the type of organization that teaches people to make hard sales. If some says no -- they leave -- they don't stay and twist arms. So, the rep should always be seeing as many people as possible in a given day. Especially if they don't sell in the morning. Because if they are really applying the law of averages -- it will catch up with them in the afternoon. It is plain math. If you usually need to see 100 doors to make a sale
  statistically those doors may not come until the end of the day. You need a full 12 hours for the law of averages to kick in. If a rep only works until one and has not made a sale yet and decides to quit -- he has no one to blame but him self. But it is easy for a rep to get distracted if they meet a nasty customer, the cops get called or they might run out of territory, or they might just wind up shopping!
  The impulse factors should be used in conjunction with the five steps. They are Fear of loss where you pretend that you only have a few items left. Indifference where you act like you donвt care if they buy or not, Greed where you explain where other people have already purchased and Sense of Urgency where you act like time is almost up. An easy way to remember them is F.U.G.I.
  Now people, I have said a lot about Ds-max and Cydcor. But I know that this marketing system does work. I did it for four years. I am attempting to educate here. What I mean by that is that if you get an area, and you hustle and work the whole time and you have something that is cheap, not too hard to explain - someone might by -- you should make some money. This system works all over the world in all languages. But not everyone can do it. It is not for the shy or those who are not fit.
  Let's go through a typical business to business day. You pick out an area. You hit every business in that area -- being sure to hit every side street and all the business that are in building. You do not do callbacks. You do not leave cards. This is a buy it now or not at all type thing. Strictly on impulse. Plus, reps do not make that much commission per sale to justify keep going back for the on the fence buyer. In a few weeks another rep will come by the same area (as long as a mapping system is in place. If there is no mapping system there could be a rep with the same product in another hour!)
  It is important to note here that all transportation in the field is up to the rep. The office will not cover any transportation costs. They tell reps to write all the expenses down and deduct them at the end of the year. So if a guy has a car, he would be wise to get gas money if he is giving someone a ride. Or that person can just pay for bus fare. You might make Ј45 in profit, but you have to subtract transportation costs.
  If you hustle and work the whole day, you can make money. You don't pay attention to any negatives like rude people, security officers throwing you out of buildings or people almost about to buy, perhaps even filling out a certificate, and then changing their mind. That is all part of maintaining your attitude and knowing why you are here and what you are doing and working a full 12 hours and working your territory correctly. How to explain the magic of the field to people that have never done it? Just suffice it to say that people go through a lot of interesting situations. You will meet the sweetest people that will feed you and offer you a coke. Or you can meet the receptionist with a power trip that calls security on you along with every other office in the building. You could walk in to a small business that smells like weed and later on pitch a church that just got done with a funeral. They meet the best and the worst of people. They get in weird conversations and situations. Sometimes they strike it rich. Sometimes it is days with out making a dime.
  Ds-max and the owners try and make it so that it is possible for a rep to earn at least Ј45 a day. If they are earning more than that the stroke should be adjusted so that they earn Ј45. If they earn less it should be similarly adjusted. They don't want the guys too rich or too poor. However there are some serious flaws. Not a lot of commission is paid per sale to a rep. This means they must be in a constant state of work to make a buck. Reps can have days when they make good money and days when they make little money. Or they can have days go by when they are on a slump and make practically nothing. The high earning days are often not enough to cover this.
  This is a very important part to the business. Never under estimate it. This is where a person learns about the business, gets rejuvenated about the business and where the manager controls the business. It is the media. The blood of the madness. An owner would say that Atmosphere should be nothing but teaching and learning about the business. Generally, a big room is set aside for people to gather in the morning to practice pitch and learn about atmosphere. There is almost always a dry erase board handy so that a person can draw something to help teach others.
  Atmosphere happens twice a day. Once in the morning before the meeting, and secondly, in the evening as people get back from the field. Atmosphere is when the owner is on stage. He has to make sure that his office delivers a superior performance to the new people and the leaders or the attitude will slip and then sales will slip. Here are a few rules (in no order of importance):
  Always get with the guy who made money that day or the day before and learn what he did.
  Always get with the owner, assistant manager or especially a visiting Manager and find out what they did to get ahead.
  If you are a leader always try and be showing a new person something positive about the business or how to make more money using the marketing system.
  Tell a merchandising story that has a positive aspect.
  Isolate or Quarantine from the general populace anyone who does not have a great attitude in atmosphere.
  Promote your goals that have to do with success through the business.
  Give recognition to anyone who "makes noise" or "rings the bell" (some one who sells a certain amount that day and is "privileged" to be able to hit a gong or ring a bell or sound off a horn in atmosphere" One gives recognition by saying "juice" or "juice by YOU" and high fiving the jubilant sales rep.
  Practice Pitching -- when everyone gets in little groups and practices going through a pitch.
  Have games -- which have to do with pitching or learning about the marketing system.
  Have loud music.
  Make new people want to become a part of the family by constantly promoting ds-max in front of them.
  Promote what an owner wants said about a situation (in leaders meeting a situation may arise about a campaign or a person in the office and the owner can dictate to the leaders how this situation is to be promoted in atmosphere to new people -- you would be surprised how this works)
  Have hip loud music playing. This makes people have to speak up in pitch circles and also if a new person says something negative the music will drown it out.
  The effects of these rules on the mind of the rep are as subtle as silk but get a hard as a vice. The non-leader starts out by seeing everyone having a good time before and after work. But then you become a leader and now you are a thought cop -- always making sure everyone is acting like they should. You go from genuinely being curious and asking a question as a non-leader -- to manipulating your guys to ask how to get a head - to constantly regurgitating the same stories to your guys. You believe it and you hope that if you repeat it enough that your guys will too. You go from wanting to get a head in life -- to coming down hard on any dissension from what should be said in atmosphere. You see, when you start the business, you want a job and you try and fit in. Atmosphere may seem a bit weird -- but, hey, you need to pay rent. If you last and you become sold on the business -- you have to act in certain ways.
  Understand -- to go door to door for eight plus hours and to make money for you and maybe some else -- is as much of a mental exercise as a physical one. Attitude is everything. You have to have your thoughts in control. If you are in a bad mood or doubt your self the people will see it and not buy. Being in the field selling door to door is not like being a cashier at Asda. Going door to door for eight hours means having doors slammed on you, angry people, having someone insinuate you are a crook to your face, you might run out of territory, you might run in to some one else, some might have been there the day before and not marked it, your day of o might have high heels on and want to go home early -- you name it! So you use atmosphere and all the tools of the office to get yourself and your crew into that selling state. And to be in that rhino state you adopt the whole psychology. If you have been in the business for months -- you learn that following that psychology will help you make money in the field and get you recognition in the office. Because to run a door to door sales crew Attitude is everything! As leader, you enforce atmosphere. Enforcing Atmosphere as long as I have has made me recognize how important media is to a society. I.E. what gets said, what gets left out, how something is promoted. When you start out learning the business, you have to learn how to sell to eat. To learn to sell, you act like the guys that are doing the job. And who are making the most sales in the office? The guys that take control, that have the best attitudes, that don't let negatives bother them, that follow the 5& 8 to a T and don't vary it are the high producers. You adopt that psychology and pay your bills, or you make no money and be out of a job.
  By the way one big lie that is often insinuated in many offices in the business that with out Atmosphere, no one would be able to sell anything. That if you leave the business and do your own thing that you will languish in poverty because you will not have atmosphere to rejuvenate you! I guess that is why so many important inventions sell in the world today then -- because of atmosphere! I wonder what atmosphere was like for Bill Gates or Henry Ford? LOL!
  Morning atmosphere. You are supposed to arrive and get your merchandise and then attend a meeting. Before the meeting is when atmosphere happens. If you are a leader and are training someone that day and the campaign is a little complicated, atmosphere can be a life saver for you if you make sure to get your trainee pitching and learning so that they are more ready for the field.
  Evening atmosphere. People should return back from the field after a certain hour. They settle up for what they sold and go home -- but not so fast. Hang around in the office for a while for atmosphere. If you are new -- they will not make you hang around too long. The owners and leaders will pull you aside, make sure you didn't have a bad day and are about to quit, get you excited about the next day and then put you on your way. If you are a leader with a crew you should be there for as much of night atmosphere as possible. You have to make sure that if any of your crew had a low paying day that you get with them and get them in the door for the next day. And if they are making ok money then you should be fear of lossing them into wanting to be a leader. After all the new people have gone home, Atmosphere can end and the leaders can go home too.
  All offices have chants and phrases. Some are specific to the office. This is encouraged as it leads to more unity and fun. Each crew is often encouraged to come up with their own slogan or song. Even a poster. There are also many terms that are organizational. I will touch on what some of them mean later.
  It is also important to note how these chants, sayings and words will play their part in the organization of the office. When you say a certain word, everyone is trained to say a certain word back. This immediately stops though of other things and gets attention focused on the speaker. For example "juice". You say juice and some one should say juice back. So if someone is running a meeting and people are talking in the background -- the speaker can say "juice?" and everyone in unison should say juice back. Or you can start a chant, and then everyone will roboticly repeat it and change their thoughts. Because saying juice helps a person to stay in the ds-max mode of thought. It is all kind of like the Pavlov's dog example. A sound is uttered and then people associate a feeling or response to the stimulus. Pavlov's dog salivated at the sound of the bell, when some one says juice you get into a ds-max rhino mode.
  Here are some sayings:
  Juice = Join us in creating excitement. This word is a be all end all for DS-max lingo. It demonstrates how reps are supposed to be in an excited, opportunity minded state. To follow this program, you have to be positive. To get people you never met to buy from you on the spot -- you have to be in a positive state of mind. If someone says "juice?" to you, you should say "juice!" back.
  Juice by you = congratulations
  Juice by that = well done
  9 to 5 schmuck = some one that has a 9 to 5 job. This person is lazy, has his life controlled by a boss, will be laid off, has no sense of goals or directions and is too secure in their poor existence to try and get a head in life.
  Rhino = A ds-max poster child. Someone that has a great attitude, can build a crew, overcome any negative, is looking for long term success in the business and can do the marketing system to the T.
  Impact = A small mini meeting that happens before the main meeting in the morning. A respected leader or someone that is consistent in production, or that did well the day before selects one aspect of the marketing system and talks about that for a few minutes.
  Meeting = A 10 to 30 minute gathering that happens every morning. The resident owner goes over who did well the day before, promotes people to leadership and talks about something to get the reps excited to go out in the field to sell. It should be motivational. But sometimes they are fear of loss meetings.
  Day of O = For day of observation. A job applicant. This person has been told that he is going to be teamed up with someone to spend an unpaid day in the field so that they can be evaluated and that they in turn can evaluate the company. It is up to the leader to decide if he wants the person and to be able to convince the person to take the job.
  "Hey Guys?!" = If some one shouts this.
  "Hey What?!" = Then everyone responds with that. It is a way to get everyone's attention for a meeting. If someone is trying to say something or make a point they can yell out the hey guys and get everyone to respond back hey what. There is a lot of noise going on in the office. Plus, sales men all like to get attention. So this is one way to get everyone on the same page. A good owner will train the leaders to respond with the hey what statement.
  High roller speech = If you do well in production the day before, it will be announced in the following morning meeting. You might be "privileged" to speak a bit about how you made good money. If you are a good leader, you should think before hand about what you are going to say. You want the owner to think well of you so that you will get a good day of O for your team. Usually this means picking a step from the marketing system that worked well for you, telling a story about how having a great attitude saved you and then finish by saying how you want to accomplish a ds-max related goal like get promoted in 3 months or something like that.
  Leader = a person who constantly trains people while trying to build a crew.
  Owner = a leader who now owns their own branch
  Toast = when a person burns out and quits
  5 and 8
  Having nothing to say would only be excusable for a new leader -- other than that you would just look sloppy. If you have a new person on your crew -- that is going to be speaking -- be sure to get with that person before hand and tell them what and what not to say! If the person says something anti-dsmax while doing a highroller speech in front of everyone -- expect to hear about it from the owner! If a new person starts talking out of turn up there, the leaders will start clapping their hands and saying, "juice". The negative person will be drowned out by the noise and come to realize that we all think he was done with his speech and to get back in the semi-circle
• To recap, our people have arrived on time and received their consignment of goods (be it boxes of tweety birds or an AT&T book). People have been in atmosphere a bit now -- practice pitching, learning the five steps. May be a leader is at the dry erase board with a marker explaining how to solicit in a high rise building with out getting easily caught (something yours truly was pretty good at!) The music has been blaring all morning and hopefully the owner has good taste. If he is a smart owner he will not let the young kids start playing offense rap music that will alienate the women and scare off his more professional recruits. But that is not always the case!
  It is time to get the people going but first they must be even more hyped up.
  "Hey guys" some yells out.
  "Hey what" the people yell back
  "Do you want a meeting?" and on it goes.
  First is a 5-minute impact where a leader or someone near leadership will share some knowledge on an aspect of the marketing system. (A little foot note here. In an office that is thriving with many high earning leaders -- competition for the right to do an impact is fierce! On the other hand, you might be in an office that is brand new, or is in a slump and then you might be doing ALL the impacts. Then you feel like an impact !!!!! and just wish that some one would give you a rest. Because what if you had a bad day -- now you are going to go up in front of everyone and tell them how to do it? I have been in both situations. If I have a new person starting that day -- I always tried to be the one doing the impact.)
  He will finish with a "hey guys" and then get everyone to call out for a meeting.
  The owner or assistant manager will now do a 10 to 30 minute schpeal. The production from the day before will be gone over. He will announce the people that did well. The high roller speeches will be given. Now the owner will pick something to talk about to motivate the guys. It could be about a personal story, a new campaign, success in the business, an inspirational story. Then there is the close. And then it is out in the field.
  Ok. Joey the new guy is doing pretty well. He was taken out by his faithful leader and a few others to learn a campaign. He got it. He got put out on his own -- and what do you know! -- he is making ok money. Now his leader wants to try and make Joey get into leadership. But he can not make him. Joey has to WANT to become a leader. So that is when Joeyвs faithful leader and all the other sold individuals will really start to promote the opportunity of the business. They will talk about things like "how much money an owner makes", being financially independent, how they want to work hard while they are young so that they can retire rich, where they want to open an office, how much money other owners are making, success storyвs in the business. This is all normal talk for atmosphere. But for our friend Joey, the pressure is on. Joey must be made to really want leadership. To be always asking other leaders and the owner whatever it is he must do to be a leader. May be he will be told to memorize "G.A.R.L.I.C." To have a Great Attitude, be Responsible, have Income and to do all this on a Consistent basis.
  An important first step is for Joey to attend an opportunity meeting. It will take place either before or after work. It will be made to seem like Joey has to be "invited" to attend it. The reality is that the poor owner is praying that enough people will actually show up. But Joey must be in a state where he is dying to hear how to get a head. And then, the resident manager will make his pitch.
  Now people, I have never given an opportunity meeting. But I sure have seen enough of them. I will not make this a complete one. A lot of what is covered in an opportunity meeting I am covering in other areas of this report. I am writing it like this to try and explain to the lay person what kind of state people get put in to hear this meeting. How the choreography goes. You don't simply present something like this right up front to a job applicant. Ds-max wants people to hear this that have been in the business for a little bit. That knows that there is a possibility of making money in the field. It is for people that have a little bit of faith in the business -- not necessarily sold -- so that they can be hooked in more.
  So I will just give a meeting. Here is the setting. There is a room that the company uses for morning meetings. There is no table to sit at. All the meetings are held around a dry erase board while people are standing. But on this occasion, there are chairs for the new people and the leaders. The new people of the office are there. They are made to feel like it is a privilege to be invited. The leaders are most often there too. The leaders are there to get re-indoctrinated and to provide vocal support for the owner. They will do this by saying "juice" at the right moment are asking a question about ds-max that the owner can answer in a favorable manor to help impress this new crop of recruits.
  The meeting is really a show. A presentation. A commercial. The owner is selling the opportunity to new hires. So he will do his best to set the stage to his advantage. For once, the music will be turned off and chairs will be set up in front of a dry erase board. Leaders will be invited to attend. A good owner will get the leader to ask a question that will allow him to promote the business i.e. q How many offices are there? A 28,000 spread around the world and there is room for 1000's more! The new people have been made to feel special for being "selected" to hear this meeting. May be there is some food and drinks. The stage is now set.
  The owner will now explain what ds-max, cydcor, granton marketing and his company are. He will then go into the advantages of marketing door to door -- to try and get the new hires to see a broader picture on what they do. He can talk about how his business is not paying huge bills to get people to visit something via television or radio. How word of mouth is so much better a system than mail. The manager will promote why it is better all around to be paid strictly on performance by his clients. (Whether or not a rep makes a sale determines the amount of money received by a client.) He will mention how even if a person does not buy a certificate or sign up for a service, at least they have heard about the product and may sign up for the company on his own, or later on buy from another rep. It is promoted how everyone in the office has such better attitudes than regular 9 to 5 people and how much the public is impressed by the professionalism of ds-max. An owner can explain that if someone pays for a commercial, the viewer can change the channel or not even be home to see it. How people throw junk mail out with out reading it. But then he go into detail about how effective his advertising is by hitting every single door in a given area and how his reps can't be turned off or thrown out like an add. He may talk about how reps brighten everyone's day.
  Now the owner will start to mention growth and expansion. It will be mentioned that more locations are desperately needed to handle their clients, that more managers are needed to run them! He will usually make the following comments in his word: That he would rather have a consistent person dedicated person than an inconsistent person, that he wants manager that can run offices not sales people. He will mention that sales people just help him pay his bills. That an office he can promote out will make him a lot more money.
  So now the reps are intrigued. Don't they want to be a manager and run offices? They aren't just measly sales people -- are they? Because if they are -- or the manager thinks they are -- they will be viewed as chumps in the office.
  The owner will now explain how to get to management. You get promoted to leadership. To do that you have consistent production, you have a great attitude in and out of the office, you display leadership qualities and you do all this on a consistent basis. You have to be able to prove that you can retrain some one. (I'll get into that later) Plus you must always be asking the manager and the other leaders in the office how to get to leadership. (After all -- this is your financial independence we are talking about here --right? Shouldn't you always be asking someone who is doing the job how to do it?) Now when you are a leader you win the right to build a crew. To do this, you take out a day of observation, close them, retrain them and get them to leadership. 5 times. You need to get 5 leaders on your team. Plus, these leaders must be able to build crew too.
  If one of your guys puts someone on his crew, that would be your second generation. Ideally you want to shoot for at least 10-15 people on your crew. At least 5 must be first generation leaders and the rest will be some 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation guys and of course your first generation that are not yet leaders. You need a big crew to be able to hit a production level that is usually set by the manager. So the requirements are 1) the five-generation leaders 2)-crew size 3) having your crew hit the production requirement.
  When you do those things, you will be an assistant manager. You will stay in the office, do interviews, learn the paperwork and save money. Save about 10 grand. You are paid an override off your big crew now. When you have the money saved, you get a territory, an office, furniture, and your first and last months rent paid, take any on your crew willing to go and open up your deal. What will happen is that you will have an independent corporation formed for you. You will be president of this corporation. Then, you and your corporation are entitled to sell products that Ds-max and or Cydcor or
  Granton Marketing gives you. No loans. No MBA. You pay for ads and rent.
  You will now do interviews all day to get days of observations for your leaders in your office. It is promoted that you will make a 6-figure income. You do a meeting, your guys go out an make you money, have some atmosphere and then you laugh all the way to the bank. If you have 20 guys going out in the field and they all make money, you just made yourself a nice bit of change that day!
  Let us take note here. There is never a direct tie here from the independently formed corporation and its suppliers. If the fledgling corporation does well -- great -- Ds-max and the powers that be will get their money. If the office misrepresents products, if the people in the office commit any crimes, then Ds-max and the products escape all liability.
  Offices fail! What happens if all the guys quit? How is the owner going to pay for advertising bills, phones and rent? What can make the guys quit? A tough new campaign, an unchecked leaders and or owners that always try and sleep with all the women, favoritism of an owner to a leader so that he gets all of the days of observations, an owner that underpays his reps (remember it is HIS independently owned corporation), another nearby office with your campaign going into your territory, the inability of an owner to motivate his guys to go through the program because of personality, burn out or disillusionment and I can go on and on. Or the owner could lose a campaign. If the campaign that the owner had is fairly easy, his reps may not be able to handle a tougher one. Or they may not be given another campaign -- just told to up and move in an area where they can work. Many offices fail the first year. And then it is back to your promoting manager or a into a VP's office and then you start building a crew again. It is widely promoted that those who get shut down the first time and do it again are the strongest. But that is if they can ever do it again. These guys still often owe money on leases, phone bills and pay to former distributors.
  Ok now, back to our opportunity meeting. Hold on! Our new reps think. What is the catch? May be a leader will pipe up in the back and say something like "why don't you just take the city for yourself" or "what is the catch" The owner is only too happy to reply. An owner makes a portion of the sales of each office that he promotes out. (Not 2nd or 3rd generation offices -- just 1st) The owner gets this override from ds-max. When the promoting office pays ds-max for the product it sells, a portion of that money is paid to the promoting owner. For example, letвs say a certificate sells for 10 dollars in the field. The rep will get 5 dollars, the owner 3 and head office 2. Let's say that the promoting manager's cut is Ј1. Head office will pay the promoting manager Ј1 out of the Ј2 it got.
  So, an owner can make 10 grand a year off a good outside deal. If an office has about 20 reps a piece and they are all selling and he gets a piece of each sale -- it is not hard to imagine how you can get 10 grand to the promoting owner. If you put out -- say 2 outside deals -- that is 20 extra grand a year you get -- on top of what you make while running your office? Sounds good -- huh? "Juice!!!!!" Exclaim all the leaders present. Maybe even some of the new people are starting to say juice along with them.
  But wait - it gets better!
  Guess what happens when you promote out 5 first generation deals and are doing a certain volume in your organization? You become a regional manager with more clout AND your overrides off your first generation deals double! Furthermore -- if you put out at least 7 first generation deals, and have 2 seconds and have a certain amount of production -- you will be a vice president! This means a Ј250,000 base salary, plus overrides on all your deals, plus the income from the office you run. The leaders should all be hooting and hollering saying juice and claiming that that is where they will be in five years. The new people are flushed with joy at thinking about how they too could be able to get those goals and can't believe there luck at being part of this wonderful origination.
  Let us not leave out how the big shots will be promoted. Murray Reinhardt, various vice presidents, all will be given as examples of how you can go from rags to riches through this wonderful program.
  Now it is up to the manager to get this dream instilled in his guys. To have them get them to devote all they have to getting to VP, for their own financial independence -- and his. See why Atmosphere and meetings are so important now? In Atmosphere, as well as going over the pitch, you constantly go over this opportunity for financial independence. Reps are encouraged to visualize their new office -- to preselect what they want to call their corporation -- even put it on a crew poster. So if you have a leader on a slump that just lost his crew -- again -- that leader will hang on. Why? Because for countless times they have heard about how VPs and regional manager went through multiple crews and ate ramen noodles and stuck it through and now make the big money. It is promoted how you may have to build crews a few times, how only a few that are tough will make it. It is promoted that to succeed; the rep must close the door on any thought of quitting and just give there all to the business.
• Moral of the story: ask questions at interview.
• milestoneinfo: Never have seen such an all-comprehensive piece on DS-MAX / Granton Marketing. With experience I can say, that all info included is exactly dead on true. Beautiful, man.
  Myself, I've followed the program for 18 months, became an owner and tried to build a Granton organization the way I saw it. Went pretty well, actually opened a second office before HeadQuarters began to fight me on every step for not following procedure on the basics. (i.e. I feel that in a lot of areas the system is not perfect, and could work even better if changes are made in reward structures for working a territory, improvements can also be made on the deals the reps present to the field, working hours could and should be adapted for only 1 (or max 2) run(s) through a territory, beginning at 4.30 pm and stopping at 8.30pm for creating a 4 hour non-stop sales frenzy (I often did this as an owner and came back with better results than most leaders). With these adaptions and a better reward system, this could create ppl doing this job on the side of their studies without need for the opportunity, lessen the need for "atmosphere" (which has some serious drawbacks, when you consider what you find yourself doing to people sometimes, convincing them of their own capabilities when you know they never could realize their dream/fantasy)... ohh well, there is some much that I changed and still wanted to change, I could go on and on, and for the most part, Granton does not agree, seeing these things as insults to the founders.... LOL
  Anyway,
  As the first of my 2 beautiful kids saw the light of life, I decided not to further deal with these morons, after 2 1/2 years of Granton Marketing loaded with high and low points and interesting experiences. I'm now enjoying family life as a 9 to 5 schmuck...
  ...but, every now and then, something inside me reminds me of the Granton times, and I comfort myself with the thought that, after my kids will leave our house, I will once again roam the streets for money, build a team and setup office in the city with currently the most succesfull Granton office... and beat 'em at their own game.
  Which should be a piece of cake.
  Anyway, many thanks for your piece, it brought back some memories...
  Cheers.
• Sorry, I fell asleep about 2 lines into your second post. Do you seriously expect anyone to read all that?
  The fact that it was door-to-door selling and the mention of 28,000 offices would have rung alarm bells with me. If they have so many offices, how come you hadn't heard of them before?
• Hi, I know this thread has been inactive for quite a while but I wanted to add this.
  Earlier today I accepted a job with a company called Fosters Marketing Solutions. They basically ran me through the exact same script as above, the company works in exactly the same way and in all honesty, the two companies are probably the same thing. I was supposed to be starting tomorrow, but thankfully my bf found these links
  https://tomcat4.prospects.ac.uk:8080/...a9db8d29a9b0cd
  https://thewhinger.tgtmedia.co.uk/200.../#comment-1601
  Thank god I found out in time. I just wonder what's going to happen to the other 30 people that were there today along with the dozens they called about interviews.
  I really hope others are smarter than I am and don't fall for this rubbish.
• I have just been contacted by the Fosters marketing and solutions company and been asked to attend an interview tomorrow. Obviously before going to the interview I wanted to find out more about this company to no what to ask them. At first I was a little put off by their site their campaigns page especially my suspitions were confirmed from every other site I have looked on. So from within an hour of being offered a job interview for this company I have realised it was a complete con I'm just glad I found this out now as I was actually going to quit university if the right opportunity came along! I'm just glad that people out thier are posting these posts and keeping us all informed of these con artists! What I would like to know is why the trading standards or anyone have not been informed about this and why they are still aloud to entise us into such a rubbish offer. I'm still looking for a job in marketing or PR but will be extra careful with any companys in the future!
• AH....it is by coincidence I came across this thread, but Fosters Marketing rings a bell!!!
  I got a job with them in July, these guys are based in Leeds - well I spend two days there and left. Not because I knew any of this conning they do...hadnt a clue...until now!!
  I am so glad I did - it felt perfect having worked in a part-time sales position in the past (something I enjoy doing and am pretty darn good at). With me it was the hours that I would need to put in...around 13 hours up to 6 days a week...do the math. My first year in uni had just ended and I was looking for a summer job...they seemed perfect.
  I also left because I wanted to focus on my online marketing adventures and doing such a job would mean no time for anything else, including a social life which I mentioned to Mr Foster who said that working hard and doing well means goodbye to a social life...hell at least he admitted it
  But from my two long days there, I confirm exactly what the OP has said...almost all those tactics ring a bell
  I made a couple of sales my first day (apparantly I wasnt allowed to sell yet though) and they guy looking after me took the credit - these are the types of people you will be deadling with!!!
  natalalie you are doing the right thing...its funny how it looks so legit, and they have quite a few youngsters working for them too...I really am starting to think what has happened to all of them by now
• OMG!! i went for the interview with this lot had my training day. walking the streets door to door but i was not told we were going door to door just that it was one on one training. got all the usual rubbish but what made me mad and not take the job was the fact i wore high heels and no one had the courtesy to say anything.
  That just seemed unprofessional to me so i said sod you's if you can't say wear sensible shoes how can i trust anything you say. since then I've had contact with a couple of people that worked for them and thy walked away in more debt than before and most didn't get the bonuses they were promised.
  As already said RUN as fast as your legs take you. you would make more money going to the doors asking for 10p.
• I have just been invited to an 'interview' with Life Style Advertising, in Birmingham, tomorrow. Person on phone told me they deal with blue chip companies, I eventually got it out of her that it is on a 100% commission basis, to start with, off course!
  A quick check on their website an I noticed they are 'part of the Cobra Group'.
  Off course I said I would attend the interview, will I go? I THINK NOT!
  Lets start wasting their time!!
• Just wanted to warn people in Brighton&Hove area...the same jobs are advertised in this region as well, most of them use different names and umbrella companies. The job posts are mainly under "Marketing, Sales, PR,....." Some of the names i came across so far are " Powerhouse Direct" and "TheKlub" according to the researches there is plenty more throughout East Sussex. Make sure you read these links above before you accept these companies terms.
• here in bristol too, got called up and they wer every persistent, i had to say NO I DON'T WANT THE INTERVIEW.
  Because i asked them again and again about what the actual job will entail, and who they have contracts for. The fact they were so intent on not answering my questions made me suspicious, esp the interview with the 'managing director'. LOL
• The same has happened to me was due to go to the 2nd interview tomorrow thought it was a scam and been researching tonight on the web so glad I did so definately wont be attending!!
• Amazing Post! I read every single word of it with intrigue. What a detailed and accurate post - this pyramid scheme is legendary. Certainly brought back some mixed memories.
  This organisation seems have to have spread its evil tentacles across the globe and survived the test of time. Yet still remains all smoke and mirrors to the world at large, disguised as numerous independent offices.
  In all fairness, although it has left a lot of people bitter and perhaps destroyed some people's livelihoods, the creators of this brainwashing/pyramid scheme are pretty clever since they have presumably done very well for themselves (due to the misfortune of others). I'm not condoning what the scheme does but trying to offer a flip-side to this.
  An alternative perspective:
  I was a student on summer break from my first year at university. A friendly, smiley Aussie girl appeared out our doorstep selling "privilege cards" for a local restaurant. I don't recall buying one, though my sister and myself were recruited to work and earn some money over the summer holidays. Since I hadn't lined up any work experience or anything productive for the holiday I thought it might be worth a try for a bit. (An alternative to working as a waiter in the local Chinese restaurant)
  From there the story pretty much follows the extremely accurate script above. Drove out to the office in Romford (a little room in a business park). Practiced pitches, lots of ringing the bell, juice, clapping, high-5's etc. Slowly the brainwashing began....
  The difference for me, from what I understand, is that other people have applied to this job not realising that it was a door-2-door sales post or the commission only basis, or believing it was a about building "career" etc.
  I knew what it was on the door and was open to the idea of doing it for a fun/laugh/life experience. It was certainly hard work, and I did a couple of "donut" 0-sales days. And there were days where I considered giving up, however persistence and attitude and pure stubbornness prevented me giving up. By the end of the holidays I had become one of the top sellers in the office. Absolutely confident and consistent, believing that I could tackle any scenario, any personality, all door scenarios were evaluated and worked to my advantage. There became an almost natural rhythm to dropping a piece and getting the close.
  Too easy!?...
  Then came the crunch, the Owner congratulated me and tried to pitch his world view to me, to convince me to leave university with the prospect of earning serious money very quickly and progressing up the ranks. That I had a great future, blah.blah.... In fact by this stage I had become so enraptured with the concept that I was almost brainwashed to the point where I was going to give up (as insane it now sounds to turn away from a place at one of the top Uni's in London/World in that field) Thankfully I had some very level headed parents who guided me back on the right track and made me see sense again.
  Lessons learned
  Strangely, I look back actually with *very* fond memories of my time working under the umbrella of Cobra/Granton - the name of the particular company I have since forgotten. There were some late nights out to bars, and crashing over at random people's flats. Meeting young people from different backgrounds, being out in the summer sunshine while working (MAJOR bonus now that I'm a 7am-7pm office worker in The City)
  I learnt a huge number of important life-skills.
  I learnt about dealing with difficult people, understanding people, empathy, gaining people's trust, speaking confidently (100 ppl a day) maintaining good attitude at the most dire moments, managing one's emotions and disassociating that from the job/task at hand, ultimately believing in oneself and that you are the master of your own success.
  These are lessons I would not give back for the world. But in terms of a career, there are obviously fundamental flaws in the "system", and gladly my parents helped highlight these and allowed me to make an informed, rational decision of my own choosing, not to carry on working there.
  I do wonder what happened to all the people I worked with, and whether or not they are still struggling with sales jobs or chasing their dreams. If Georgie & Jimmy Rainbow are out there, please say hello!
  To the more vulnerable people in the world without supportive level-headed family/friends to pull you back on track, be very wary of selling your life to this company. It's all a numbers game, and for every success there are 100's of failures. If I were placing bets on the outcome, I know which side I would be on.
  In summary, I think I learn many things from my (fond) experiences, and yet am equally relieved that I wasn't drawn into what I saw was akin to a religious corporate cult. Especially the massive Cobra cross-office "conference" at Earls Court or was it Wembley Arena?
  I hope that this helps people make informed choices about their own future and ultimately take control of their own lives and success, not to become driftwood brainwashed and washed out to sea.
  Wishing everyone success for the future.
  Regards
• This rings a massive bell. Last summer I had an interview with a marketing company in Leeds after seeing an advert in the local paper. I can't remember the name now but the offices were on Upper Briggate I think. There were hoards of young people waiting and we were interviewed two at a time, which immediately set alarm bells ringing.
  Once in the interview room a self proclaimed marketing guru recounted how he had built up this company from scratch, and how there are now thousands of offices all over the UK. He also stressed that the firm markets for blue chip companies. He then asked us a few compentency questions such as "what motivates you through the day?", and we duly spouted our contrived answers.
  The next day the secretary called me to say that I had been successful and that I was invited to a second round "interview" that would be completely out in the field. I didn't go, as seemed wrong to dress up a day's training as an "interview"... not to mention the dubious lack of explanation as to what exactly we would be doing. We were only told that there would be walking involved.
  Judging by the above posts probably best avoided!
• This rings a massive bell. Last summer I had an interview with a marketing company in Leeds after seeing an advert in the local paper. I can't remember the name now but the offices were on Upper Briggate I think. There were hoards of young people waiting and we were interviewed two at a time, which immediately set alarm bells ringing.
  Once in the interview room a self proclaimed marketing guru recounted how he had built up this company from scratch, and how there are now thousands of offices all over the UK. He also stressed that the firm markets for blue chip companies. He then asked us a few compentency questions such as "what motivates you through the day?", and we duly spouted our contrived answers.
  The next day the secretary called me to say that I had been successful and that I was invited to a second round "interview" that would be completely out in the field. I didn't go, as seemed wrong to dress up a day's training as an "interview"... not to mention the dubious lack of explanation as to what exactly we would be doing. We were only told that there would be walking involved.
  Judging by the above posts probably best avoided!
• There seems to be a lot of new posters on this subject. I smell El Ratto.
  Suckers will always be there for the taking.
• Hiya, Well I couldnt believe it when my friend sent me thr link and i read it all, I have also been sucked in by the scam, I was working for the "Cobra Group" for the vantage office in wolverhampton, we had all the 5 steps and the 8 steps and I worked so hard in trying to be good at it but the law of averages really doesnt work and the pay was diabolical, I was paid 24 pounds for a weeks work and i still havent had the wages I am owed, They told us within a week of me bein there that we were going for "training" in nottingham for a week, this week turned into two and then three and as far as i know they are still there, If i applied for a job in wolverhampton I like to think i would be at least have my office based there not moved to nottingham, i know that lots have people left my office and i know that a few have been sacked because they refuse to go back to nottingham. I have walked out and am currently looking for a new job but these kind of people annoy me, the only good thing thats has come out of this is that I have found my confidence again and I am able to motivate my self more, maybe they should change trade and go in for motivation company rather than marketing.
  Well thats my rant over, but i am so glad that i am not on my own in this
  Emzie x